I heart Calvin and Hobbes. Bill Watterson gets to the core of serious issues and on top of providing ethics 101 he provides comedic relief to situations that could prove to be stressful and complex. Right now, I am looking for that humorous relief. Until then, my sanity has been preserved by Andy's comments below. The other participants, now that all are up to date, will be heard from soon. Ha!
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1. So the Meche contract has nothing to do with it? At all? C'mon. Then the Hendricks brothers are pretty bad agents. Also, remember that the Red Sox were in on the Clemens bidding. The Pavano signing was unfortunate. Though, lots of other teams were interested in a guy who went 18-8 the year before and had already pitched well in a WS.
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Pettitte's deal was finished the day after Meche's was. Unless the Yankees had Dayton Moore's office bugged, I'm pretty much positive they had nothing to do with each other. And since esteem for Boston's front office is pretty much equal to New York's, Boston's flirtation with Clemens comes over as profoundly uninteresting. Boring, creativity-deficient teams signing expensive veterans. Sun rises in east.
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2. Correct, Clemens, Pettitte and Mussina are older. And? Somehow they're still getting guys out. It is unfortunate that Liriano is hurt, but after that, is anyone supposed to be impressed that after Santana the Twins are relying on Boof Bonser? Yeah, I'll take any of the 3 aforementioned veterans anyday for any length of time before that. Plus, having them on hand to mentor younger pitchers is bad why?
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Since the argument is furiously being argued that the Yankees are in the middle of some youth movement, I think that he should be impressed that a 96 win team in 2006 is counting on a 25 year old in their rotation. Unless it's just typical Yankee fan bluster? It's an odd dig either way, since Bonser has been better than both Clemens and Mussina this year, while costing a total of $400,000.
The reason I pointed to their ages in the first place was because Yankees fans congratulating themselves for the wisdom in not signing old men through the end of the decade. Making fewer dumb decisions isn't the same thing as being smart.
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3. We'll see about 2009, I suppose. It's certainly possible for the Yanks to trade some of them--maybe even for the likes of Johan Santana. But I highly doubt it will be for less. If that were the case, Gagne or Teixieria or both would be on the Yankees right now since all of these prospects were asked for. Maybe Kennedy is moving too fast. Maybe not. How many innings did any of the college pitchers that the A's have brought up recently pitch in the minors?
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I promise you that the Yankees don't have the goods in their system to trade for Santana. The only way he'll appear in pinstripes this decade is if they wait for him to finish 2008 without extending with Minnesota and then they back a truckload of money up to his house in Venezuela. Which actually should be a source of hope. If Yankees fans want Santana, they should hope that Cashman knows his strength: keeping his hand steady while he signs checks, not developing pitching prospects.
My only interest in Kennedy's promotions is in passing. If he ever gets big league hitters out, I don't expect it will be in New York anyhow. I actually don't know which Oakland pitchers he's talking about in particular. Braden's moved fast, but he was a 2004 pick and logged nearly 300 innings in the minor leagues. In any case, he's sort of a weird case because I don't think Oakland expects much of him. He was a 24th rounder who works with a novelty pitch. He's more part than prospect.
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4. Again, point taken that the draft is crap shoot...more busts than hits. I get it. That doesn't mean it's not worth spending money on players you feel are worth the risk. The Yanks don't over-slot every pick they make. Just because players are busts doesn't mean that others aren't worth the gamble. If someone had a great career, it'd certainly be worth it. If these guys are the nexus of a WS winning staff would it be worth it? Of course it would. If it were the Twins who did it and won, of course it would be worth it.
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But they're going about their pursuit of prospects the same way they went about their pursuit of free agents: letting the money cover the mistakes. They don't pay overslot to every pick because not every pick demands overslot money. It's not like there's some great level of discernment at work. Just cash. And then if the first batch of cash doesn't work, more cash.
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5. Wow, you're picking on Posada's role in 1996 to counter this point? Fair, I suppose, though he was the starter, and an all-star in 1999, 2000, and 2001. It was my fault for forgetting about Bernie. It wasn't intentional. He was a great Yankee. It was convenient for the Yankees to forget him? Huh? Because they didn't sign him to another 1 year deal? Really? They just tossed him aside? Sure. And Bernie was so pissed about this treatment he went and signed with who? Right. No one. Because he's a Yankee for life and he knows it. He doesn't want to play anywhere else. I highly doubt you'll find many people outside of Lofton and Sheffield that haven't loved playing in NY during the Torre era. And, who was he supposed to play ahead of based on last year's performance?
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I picked on Posada because you were wrong about him. I wasn't countering anything, I just thought it was typically Orwellian Yankee fan behavior. Joe Girardi is unpersoned because he doesn't fit today's approved narrative. Maybe he'll rejoin the Yankees fold and be re-peopled, at which point his presence on the 1996 team will be remembered for his veteran leadership and invaluable mentoring to Jorge Posada. His family will be re-issued their treasured photo albums with his face reincluded and production will begin on his Yankeeography.
Berne Williams might not be so lucky. And they definitely tossed him aside. This is literally the first time I've ever seen anybody dispute this point. They failed to formulate a Bernie exit strategy of some sort and pretty clearly failed to articulate that they wanted him gone after 2006. He put up a 101 OPS+ this year, and the Yankees' bench hardly looks impressive enough that Bernie's 2006 line repeated wouldn't have been good enough. He outperformed what Johnny Damon's done this year and Miguel Cairo's been tapped to play 22 games at first base.
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6. I love the Maier mention. No dynasty without him. Except every Oriole fan conveniently forgets 3 things while crying in their beers: 1. Maier's catch only tied game 1; 2. The Orioles won game 2 and were in position to win the series without ever returning to NY; 3. The Orioles had a lead late in game 3 at home, blew the game, and lost 3 in a row at home. All because of Maier's catch! Oh, and by the way, the Yanks soundly spanked the Orioles during the year that year as well. I would agree that the Yanks dynasty ended after 2001. Sure their baseball decisions since then haven't been good...and, correct, no titles as a result.
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This is so incredibly not my fight. I don't care even a little bit about Jeffrey Maier. Except that it makes Yankees fans heated that they won a World Series in a year they that another team got jobbed. Somehow New York has become the wronged party here. Mean old baseball keeps bullying the Yankees. Ok. I lied. I appreciate the comedy value Maier provides. Good on that kid.
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7. So, the Yankees don't evaluate talent well since none of their picks were sleepers now? Oy. I'm sure they'll keep trying on this count. I would say that 'large disregard' for position players is a bit overstated with guys like Austin Jackson, Jose Tabata, and Jesus Montero in the fold. I love the Brad Halsey mention. Good one. I guess it's a good thing their international player development has produced Wang, Cano, and Cabrera...3 other guys that were supposedly over-hyped. Also, keep in mind the Yanks not only kept the right people in the late 90s...they also hyped and traded prospects that weren't as good. The Eric Miltons, Ruben Riveras, the Wily Mo Penas, the D'Angelo Jimenezs, the Ricky Ledees...in some cases the over-hyping was intentional.
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If the shoe fits, right? If Joba Chamberlain had stayed at Nebraska-Kearney (we used to run against those guys once and awhile when I was in college) then I'd be impressed at the Yankees beating the bushes. But pre-season All-Americans are hardly the evidence of top notch detective work.
None of Jackson, Tabata or Montero has made the AA jump yet, so I think the very fact that I've heard of them is a pretty solid indication they're overhyped. There's only one team who's high-A and rookie-league prospects I care about, but for some reason guys like Tabata (who've literally never done anything but be young for their level) end up on my radar. Boston is actually worse at this. There was no reason for me to ever know who Abe Alvarez is, but there was a point where he was allegedly a hot commodity. I'm still fairly confident that Peter Gammons draws a paycheck from their front office for pumping up these guys.
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8. If they go after Zambrano, that's the end of the youth movement? So, they shouldn't look to sign a quality pitcher? You think they won't make room for Hughes next year because of Pavano and Igawa? Oy. Ok. Wishful thinking, but ok. I think the 5 best arms will start. All of the comparisons to Navarro, etc. are largely irrelevant. As Mark Shapiro's quote in the NY Times article from last month, along with the demands that were laid out at the trade deadline indicate, most general managers think these guys are the goods. So, let's wait and see. I'll say it again, if they wanted to deal them for Gagne or Teixiera they could have and would have. The major league club would certainly be better for it right now. You can't ignore that as an indication of their intentions, right?
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I didn't say it was the end of the youth movement. I said it would be a good clue. And I'm right. And I'm positive they'll make room for Hughes next year, even if it means DFAing the veterans and wasting the 13 million dollars or so they owe to Pavano and Igawa. That's kind of been my overriding point for this entire discussion: mistakes don't mean anything to New York because they've got the cash to cover it up. Throwing Hughes in the rotation is a necessity next year, and the smart thing to do. But the smartest thing would have been avoiding the issue and not signing bad veterans to contracts that outlived their usefulness so he had a place in the rotation waiting without the team having to flush a small fortune. If Yankees fans want to congratulate themselves for their brilliance in making the obvious and only logical choice, that's their right. As long as I don't have to humor them.
Hughes is the only prospect in the Yankees organization as valuable as Saltalamacchia. The price for Teixeira would have started with him, and adding Chamberlain wouldn't have equalled Atlanta's package. If they wanted Teixeira, they would have had to stand in line and participate in the auction like everybody else. And they would have come in second because they didn't have the system to compete with the Braves offer.
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9. So Cabrera has no potential? Ok. I mean, after tonight's action his average is above 290, his OBP is pushing 350 and he's got the potential to be a gold glove caliber defensive player with an outstanding arm. So, his stats as a major leaguer as a 21 and 22 year old should just be extrapolated? He won't improve as he goes along? Ok. Again, we'll see how he progresses. By this logic, Jeter after his rookie year would look impish as well. Good thing the Yanks stuck with him. All I know is that more than 1 GM asked for Cabrera at the deadline. I understand Damon is having a down year, but did you see his stats from last season? What was he, chopped liver out there? The career high in homers was just due to the short porch at the stadium? At the time he signed, Cabrera was 20-21. Signing Damon for 4 years when there would likely be another outfield spot open for Cabrera in the meantime wasn't a bad decision. Ok, Damon is having a bad year this year.
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I didn't say Cabrera has no potential. I said he's not a "budding star". And I'm right. And your co-worker clearly agrees since he's scaled back that evaluation considerably already. I'm pretty comfortable saying he has potential. I'm comfortable compromising by saying Eric Byrnes is a nice comp. He'll have to stand in line for that Gold Glove, too, since THT has him at #7 in the AL. Safely in the middle of the pack. Though hope springs eternal, Derek Jeter never had to be the seventh best shortstop to win a suitcase full of Gold Gloves
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1 comment:
1) So the parameters being bandied about on the Meche deal were completely unknown to anyone else in baseball? Again, I'd doubt it. Even if correct, it doesn't mean that Pettitte and Mussina's contracts weren't market value based on that signing.
2. Bonser is better, eh, and the stats prove it? So, you'd choose him over Pettitte, Mussina, and Clemens to win a big game? Ok. Funny how, when head-to-head, particularly at Yankee Stadium these cheap, just-as-good pitchers can't win any games. And, to ultimately win the whole thing, you're going to have to get a line-up like the Yankees' out consistently. Though, I know Pohlad is more interested in cost-effectiveness, so, hey, at wins-per-dollar spent, the Twins win this one!
3. So, again, in YOUR opinion none of these prospects, outside of Hughes, are worthy. Based on your arguments, they CAN'T be. Why? Because then the Yankees are beating the Twins, Tigers, A's, etc. at their own game ALONG with having the cash to outspend each team. We don't have enought for Santana? We'll see. Again, it's probably a moot point since, though you claim it wasn't, Santana certainly seems to think the Castillo trade for a bucket of balls was a salary dump which means the future won't get here fast enough for him which means he won't take Pohlad's money anyway (which, I'm sure gives Carl a sigh of relief).
4. Again, the Yankees look at the draft and take advantage where they can. The Twins and others won't, because it's not financially sound. Right. Pohlad shouldn't be forced to part with an amount of money he earns in interest probably every hour of every day just to try to improve the team. Pohlad shouldn't look at it as investment with some risk that will take some time to pay off (just like any other investment a billionaire makes with regularity) rather than a 1 time cash outlay on little more than a gamble. That's fine. There is no award for winning cost-effectively or the amount of money a team saves. If the Twins won by paying draft picks extra you would care less. Same with me.
5. More revisionist history on Girardi's role with the Yankees and the fans' view of him. I didn't mention him originally since he wasn't a product of the Yankees' farm system (which was my larger point, at the time...just want to tie this back). BTW, since retiring as a player, Girardi has served as a bench coach and, currently, as an announcer for the team. And why did he turn down the Oriole job earlier this year? Maybe partly because he knows he's possibly in line to replace Torre? I wasn't wrong on Posada, either. My point was that they don't have a dynasty without him. Which I believe to be correct. You picked on 1 year of the dyanasty to change the argument a bit and seemingly claim that I was wrong, that I ignore Girardi, etc.
The only point on Bernie I agree with is the exit strategy. Ideally, he would've gotten his proper send-off. Do you think Yankees will never rectify this? Steinbrenner has already pontificated in public about retiring Bernie's number. And as you say, Bernies' numbers last year do exceed Damon's this year. Great catch. Hindsight is 20-20. Based on LAST YEAR's results (minus Matsui due to his injury) who would you have preferred he take at-bats from? And, BTW, Cairo played a gold-glove caliber first base so far this year. Bernie could've only helped this team at some point as a DH. And, do you think Bernie's bat wouldn't have slowed down a bit more after another season? Automatically Bernie's line from last year would be repeated in 2007? So, let me get this straight...you are free to make this assumption yet the Yankees aren't free to make the same assumption with a younger (and at this point better) Johnny Damon wouldn't repeat 2006 performance for 2007? If you want to claim the Yankees just use people and throw them away, I'd pick on someone else, especially since the final chapter of Bernie's interaction with the club hasn't been written.
6. No, it's not upsetting that the Yankees won in 1996 with Baltimore getting jobbed. I mean, the Yankees did beat a team with 3 hall-of-famers on the mound that year to win the whole thing. I do think it's funny that people seem to think the only way the Yankees won is because they get preferential treatment. Either way, I don't view any championship as holding less weight because of it.
7. Whether pre-season all-american or someone found through beating the bushes, who cares if he's a successful major leaguer? Ok, don't give the Yankee's credit. Again, I realize that if you did give the Yankees credit for developing players (outside of Hughes) that would undermine the subtext to the argument so that's fine. It doesn't mean the Yankees won't develop enough good young talent to comprise a good team or to acquire established major league talent.
8. Again, bad veterans...based on your willingness to look at last year's stats with Williams as indication that the Yankees wrongly jettisoned him (BTW, I'd love to see what would be written if he were still on the roster...he's 38!...washed-up and past his prime!) then why is looking at Pettitte, Mussina, and Clemens' performance last year and figuring they were worth a shot for 1-2 years with a crop of younger pitchers on the way? You say it's needless, I say it's smart. Were there cheaper alteratives? Sure there were. But, is it worth a premium when you know that each of these guys can get people out in big games? I'd say yes.
9. Again, we can go back-and-forth on Cabrera. If rated as the number 7 CFer in the league at 23, then by 28 he could easily be #1. That's a laugh with Jeter. I mean name me a handful of shortstops you'd rather have on your team defensively. It's not all stats...look at how this guy plays every day and the big games he plays in year in and year out.
Finally, to your overriding point...we have the cash to cover-up mistakes. I don't think I've ever disagreed with this notion. We do. And, as I've also said, these mistakes have cost the Yankees with their lack of championships over the past several seasons, just like it would any other team. I do feel that Cashman, after a few seasons of not making the final baseball decisions for the organization, has rebounded since beginning to make the final decisions again about 2 years ago. The Yankees, a few years ago, had a farm system ranked 27th in overall talent. They are now 7th. Maybe it's all hype and maybe it's not, we'll see. When the baseball decisions on player development have been right, the Yankees have been great.
Again, the notion that the billionaire Carl (let's contract the team!) Pohlad doesn't have the cash despite being in a smaller market is laughable. The fact that the Twins have been in the playoffs over the past couple of years and that he won't spend a bit more to push the team over the top, if I'm a Twins fan, is troubling.
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